name it Automata Studies. And the reason why some of his colleagues were concerned about this name was because it pegged the idea of this discipline to recreating human intelligence. And back then, as is true today, we have no scientific consensus around what human intelligence is. There's no definition
Today I have the great pleasure of interviewing Dr. Peggy Whitson. Peggy has had one of the most illustrious careers at NASA. Let's just tick off a few of her accomplishments.
¿Vale? Pero, luego, yo también la mayoría de los sonidos que tengo acústicos no viene de gente que toca en estudio, me los bajo de librerías o los sampleo directamente. Pego golpes a una caja, un bombo, etcétera, lo sampleo, los cuantizo, los cuantizo, depende. Pero, no. No tengo.
We record temp voices to figure out our performances before we actually go to the final actors and get their-- go to Sir Ben Kingsley or Nick Frost or Simon Pegg and then get the final voices which we need before we commence animation. So we spend a long time.
And that's the -- more or less the bipartisan consensus. pegged that the Republican party is in the interest of the rich and the super rich.
who's here who's the director of the center,. I if you guys could wave to everyone. Peggy Orenstein's here to discuss her new book “Cinderella Ate My Daughter: Dispatches from the Frontlines of the New Girlie-Girl Culture” which I hear is going to be making an appearance on the New York Times Best Seller List this weekend. She is also the bestselling author of “School Girls”, “Flux”, and “Waiting for Daisy” and she's a contributing
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Okay, so let me start here. I really enjoyed reading your book -- Peggy Orenstein: Thank you. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: and as the title suggests, it focuses on the all pervasive girlie-girl culture thatwho targets little girls. So for those of, for those in our audience that might
have not already read the book, why did you choose to write on this topic and what set you off on this particular -- Peggy Orenstein: Um. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: journey? Peggy Orenstein: I just have to say first of all I'm feeling so old media sitting -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: here like she's reading my credits and I'm saying, "Oh God like you
Peggy Orenstein: Um. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: journey? Peggy Orenstein: I just have to say first of all I'm feeling so old media sitting -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: here like she's reading my credits and I'm saying, "Oh God like you guys must think I'm a dinosaur." So the short answer is I have a daughter and I was, I think it's really hard to, or who
is this? And I just did not remember from when I was a little girl -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: that every little girl had to be a princess and be swathed in pink for the first four years of her life so, or five years. So I went on this journey to try to figure out what this new pink and pretty meant, when it started, why it started, and whether it was protective of sexualization or whether
And I think where it dovetails with what you're doing -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: I mean I look at girls from infancy to sort of through the tween years and the last chapter in the book is about social media -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: where I take all the wonderful things that you and Adriana and such say, and squoosh them into --
outside in instead of the inside out, which for girls puts them at a particular set of risks -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: but I think is where we intersect. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. I think one of the things that we are seeing with all of this new media, especially the newer interactive media, is that there is so many
get feedback, you get validation from your peers so the question is what does it do for their identify identity development. Now -- Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: one of the things I talk about in my book is they're kind of at the descriptive stage. W, we know what they're doing. W, we've described what they're doing. W, we've really no idea how it's impacting -- Peggy Orenstein: What the implications are.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: what the impact is. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: In terms of what does it do for your long term identify identity development. Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. And I think at this stage then, what is important for people like you and people like me to do is to start conversations -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely.
do is to start conversations -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: so that that implication is considered. I don't know that we can know what it is and I don't know that you can ever say, -- I mean people always say to me, "Well, it's not like, it's not like if you wave a magic wand when you're three, you're gonna be sexting when you're 15." I mean that's not what I, it's not A plus B equals C --
things when I was doing the Facebook chapter -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: that I, it's really easy to look at girls and victimization -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Yes. Peggy Orenstein: but while I was doing this chapter and we're gonna talk about bullying Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum.
Peggy Orenstein: that I, it's really easy to look at girls and victimization -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Yes. Peggy Orenstein: but while I was doing this chapter and we're gonna talk about bullying Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and that sort of thing and looking at all of that, one of my friend's son's got emailed to him, he's 14, a photo by one of his classmates of her naked from
Peggy Orenstein: but while I was doing this chapter and we're gonna talk about bullying Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and that sort of thing and looking at all of that, one of my friend's son's got emailed to him, he's 14, a photo by one of his classmates of her naked from the waist up. And she called me up and said, "Oh gosh, I don't know, I mean I'm trying to tell my son that girls aren't playthings and then this girl emails this to him --
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: or what?" And when I talked to researchers and I'd be interested to know Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: as a media researcher -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: how you think about this, but when I talked to researchers on sexuality and desire, what I got back was that, for girls, that sexual entitlement and sexual
Peggy Orenstein: as a media researcher -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: how you think about this, but when I talked to researchers on sexuality and desire, what I got back was that, for girls, that sexual entitlement and sexual agency were themselves becoming objectified and becoming the new kind of have to do performance.
attitudes. The question of course is what we don't know is which is the cause and which is the effect 'cause a lot of this research is what we call correlational. Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: So we know that individuals who watch a lot of pornography have these attitudes as well. What we don't know is, is the preoccupation with sex causing their access to pornography or is it the reverse. So I think all of this objectify, what do you call it, what did you say?
access to pornography or is it the reverse. So I think all of this objectify, what do you call it, what did you say? Peggy Orenstein: Is sexual entitlement -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Okay. Peggy Orenstein: as a performance or is -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Performance.
Peggy Orenstein: Is sexual entitlement -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Okay. Peggy Orenstein: as a performance or is -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Performance. Peggy Orenstein: it yeah.
Peggy Orenstein: as a performance or is -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Performance. Peggy Orenstein: it yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: I think what it is doing is that it might have some implications down the road in terms of girls' views about intimacy, their expectations for relationships,
how they carry out these relationships. S, so I think absolutely. I think as parents of girls these are issues to be concerned about. Peggy Orenstein: Well and boys too. You're the parent of a boy as well, right? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. And I don't have a whole lot of conversations with my son about these topics 'cause he's very private and he really doesn't like to have these discussions.
B, but when I did see the Philadelphia D.A. prosecuting boys who had transmitted the messages that they had received, he prosecuted them I believe for transmission of pornography Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: that's when I had the conversation. I said, "You know you might get pictures from girls, but you really should delete them." And he looked at me in total exasperation and told me, "Mom, I'm not an idiot." But -- so I heaved a sigh of relief because it just seems like a lot of kids when you think about
think a lot about what they do with new media. So I do think it's a challenge for parents and a lot of times parents are not thinking about these issues as well. So -- Peggy Orenstein: Um. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: one of the things thethat research has shown at least for the earlier generation of chat rooms, for instance, parents who had conversations with their kids about meeting strangers, giving out information, their kids were much less likely to carry out high risk behaviors -- Peggy Orenstein: Hum.
risk. So these conversations that we have are important. Peggy Orenstein: Well I suppose because otherwise it's a tacit approval in a way too if you don't comment. I mean I know that from the research on media literacy -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: that if you don't point out -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: that if you don't point out -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: something, then it comes off as a tacit approval of that thing. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Correct. I think when you look at parental mediation strategies that is one of the strategies, that you can use. Now those strategies do work with television
when you can say, "You're all going to sit down and watch a show together." But when so much of the new media -- Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: use occurs in the privacy of their bedroom -- Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: or with their little -- Peggy Orenstein: with their text yeah -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: cell phone device next to them in their bed, how do you then know
what your kid is even consuming? Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: You know? Peggy Orenstein: Now I'm depressed.
Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: You know? Peggy Orenstein: Now I'm depressed. Now I'm worried. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: I'm glad my son will be 18 Peggy Orenstein: I mean, but it seems like I also don't wanna demonize the new technology
voice in audience: “It Gets Better”. Peggy Orenstein: “It Gets Better”. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: “It Gets Better”, thank you. So again technology can also serve as a pathway if you will as -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: you think about gay youth who are African-American or Latino -- these individuals I think have even more options with technology. So I think -- Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: definitely in terms of access messages that these new tools are a positive. Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: But like any tool they can be put to good or ill.
Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: definitely in terms of access messages that these new tools are a positive. Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: But like any tool they can be put to good or ill. Peggy Orenstein: Right, right.
Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: But like any tool they can be put to good or ill. Peggy Orenstein: Right, right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. So okay let's, -- I just wanna talk a little bit about the history again because -- Peggy Orenstein: Uh-huh.
that you get for girls. Now this cleavage, this pink is for girls blue is for boys was not always the case -- Peggy Orenstein: No. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: and even 20 years ago when my daughter was little, I don't feel it was as strong as what you're portraying. Peggy Orenstein: No, no.
Peggy Orenstein: No. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: and even 20 years ago when my daughter was little, I don't feel it was as strong as what you're portraying. Peggy Orenstein: No, no. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And in fact I was telling you the 1950 Peter Pan movie in fact had little Michael in a pink jumper.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: all babies wore white, they wore white dresses -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: because we didn't have Maytag back then and -- we had to boil clothes to get them clean -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: so we didn't like to have color. S, so there were no colors. A, all babies wore dresses. T, they all wear white. And then nursery colors came in --
Peggy Orenstein: because we didn't have Maytag back then and -- we had to boil clothes to get them clean -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: so we didn't like to have color. S, so there were no colors. A, all babies wore dresses. T, they all wear white. And then nursery colors came in -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: and they were pink and blue and then when they were assigned a sex, pink was assigned to boys and blue was assigned to girls because pink was considered to be
is for boys, blue is for girls. And I just don't think you'd get even one percent -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: at this point. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: At this point.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: At this point. Peggy Orenstein: And in addition you have “Cinderella” and “Sleeping Beauty” -- the Disney movies -- they're in blue and -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: It's true. Peggy Orenstein: I didn't think about, I hadn't 'til you pointed it out remembered about is it Michael, Michael's in pink?
Peggy Orenstein: And in addition you have “Cinderella” and “Sleeping Beauty” -- the Disney movies -- they're in blue and -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: It's true. Peggy Orenstein: I didn't think about, I hadn't 'til you pointed it out remembered about is it Michael, Michael's in pink? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Michael I think, yes.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Michael I think, yes. Peggy Orenstein: And -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: the younger child. Peggy Orenstein: the little one yeah, the one ?
Peggy Orenstein: And -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: the younger child. Peggy Orenstein: the little one yeah, the one ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: in the little feety pajamas and somebody sent me pictures of Michael Reagan in the 1960's wearing an all pink suit. So I mean if Ronald Reagan's dressed in the same
thing. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Thing. That would not happen today. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. So it wasn't really until the mid 80s when marketers recognized the profit making potential of hyper segmentation particularly with kids, that pink and blue fully came into, pink particularly -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Pink particularly, yeah.
fully came into, pink particularly -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Pink particularly, yeah. Peggy Orenstein: not blue so much, but pink came into its own -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: as being all defining of girls' younger experience. So it's just a color, it's just a color, it's a very tiny slice of the rainbow though. And to me I think
Peggy Orenstein: not blue so much, but pink came into its own -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: as being all defining of girls' younger experience. So it's just a color, it's just a color, it's a very tiny slice of the rainbow though. And to me I think of this time once when, you know how when you're driving with your kids and you get all the good stuff 'cause they're in the back seat talking and you're in the front seat
I just want my point is to just say it's too narrow -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and it's getting narrower. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Now I know you have tried to have those mixed messages, multi messages that girls can do anything and I know as a parent of a girl I did the