So please join me today in welcoming Peggy and Kaveri. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Okay, so let me start here. I really enjoyed reading your book -- Peggy Orenstein: Thank you.
Peggy Orenstein: Thank you. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: and as the title suggests, it focuses on the all pervasive girlie-girl culture thatwho targets little girls. So for those of, for those in our audience that might have not already read the book, why did you choose to write on this topic and what set you off on this particular --
Peggy Orenstein: I mean I look at girls from infancy to sort of through the tween years and the last chapter in the book is about social media -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: where I take all the wonderful things that you and Adriana and such say, and squoosh them into -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: this big. But it's I think part of what's going on with girls in particular, but all of us in general, is this idea of the performance culture --
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: where I take all the wonderful things that you and Adriana and such say, and squoosh them into -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: this big. But it's I think part of what's going on with girls in particular, but all of us in general, is this idea of the performance culture -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and the ways that I was looking at girls but I think you could look at it from a lot of difference different slices. T, they learn to define themselves from the
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: this big. But it's I think part of what's going on with girls in particular, but all of us in general, is this idea of the performance culture -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and the ways that I was looking at girls but I think you could look at it from a lot of difference different slices. T, they learn to define themselves from the outside in instead of the inside out, which for girls puts them at a particular set of risks -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum.
Peggy Orenstein: but I think is where we intersect. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. I think one of the things that we are seeing with all of this new media, especially the newer interactive media, is that there is so many opportunities for self presentation and one of the things that Turkel wrote about, I think 20 years ago, was what does it do for your identify identity development, if
W, we've really no idea how it's impacting -- Peggy Orenstein: What the implications are. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: what the impact is. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: In terms of what does it do for your long term identify identity development.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: In terms of what does it do for your long term identify identity development. Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. And I think at this stage then, what is important for people like you and people like me to
it's not like, it's not like if you wave a magic wand when you're three, you're gonna be sexting when you're 15." I mean that's not what I, it's not A plus B equals C -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: but there's a lot of research on girls and identity, girls and femininity, girls and kind of the externalization of sexuality. And we were talking a few minutes ago about -- one of the things that I thought a lot about when I was working on this book and looking at the culture of pink and pretty
went out of my head why I started saying it. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: Let me think about that for a second, but it was about -- oh it was about the difference between sexualization and sexuality -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and that one of the things as a parent and as a thinker that became a guiding principle for me that made some of the choices easier was distinguishing between
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: Let me think about that for a second, but it was about -- oh it was about the difference between sexualization and sexuality -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and that one of the things as a parent and as a thinker that became a guiding principle for me that made some of the choices easier was distinguishing between those two and recognizing that sexuality is this every very organic thing that we're trying to instill in girls that comes from within that connects you to your desire, that empowers
the waist up. And she called me up and said, "Oh gosh, I don't know, I mean I'm trying to tell my son that girls aren't playthings and then this girl emails this to him -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: and is that, -- what does it mean? And is there some way that for girls that's a sense of, shows a sort of progress that they could be embracing their sexuality, feeling better about their bodies despite the fact that they're now losing total control and he could email it like in the shampoo ad to two friends to two friends to two friends
feeling better about their bodies despite the fact that they're now losing total control and he could email it like in the shampoo ad to two friends to two friends to two friends Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: or what?" And when I talked to researchers and I'd be interested to know Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: as a media researcher -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum.
were supposed to put out there. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right, I mean I think again there isn't a whole lot of literature on these issues, but if you look at the literature on pornography, for instance, individuals who do consume pornography do, -- adolescents for instance, they do have greater preoccupation with sex, they do have more curiosity, and they're more permissive, if you will, in their
Peggy Orenstein: it yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: I think what it is doing is that it might have some implications down the road in terms of girls' views about intimacy, their expectations for relationships, how they carry out these relationships. S, so I think absolutely. I think as parents of girls these are issues to be concerned about.
Peggy Orenstein: Well and boys too. You're the parent of a boy as well, right? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. And I don't have a whole lot of conversations with my son about these topics 'cause he's very private and he really doesn't like to have these discussions. B, but when I did see the Philadelphia D.A. prosecuting boys who had transmitted the messages that they had received, he prosecuted them I believe for transmission of pornography
these technologies they really don't think about the implications. There's a lot of over disclosure going on -- Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: they forward messages, they copy and paste their instant messages, sync messages that they have with friends, they forward it on. S so they really don't think a lot about what they do with new media. So I do think it's a challenge for parents and a lot of times parents are not thinking about these issues as well. So --
meeting strangers, giving out information, their kids were much less likely to carry out high risk behaviors -- Peggy Orenstein: Hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: online. So that is something. And when parents didn't have those conversations, if teachers had those conversations, then those kids were significantly less at risk. So these conversations that we have are important.
Peggy Orenstein: Well I suppose because otherwise it's a tacit approval in a way too if you don't comment. I mean I know that from the research on media literacy -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: that if you don't point out -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: something, then it comes off as a tacit approval of that thing.
Peggy Orenstein: something, then it comes off as a tacit approval of that thing. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Correct. I think when you look at parental mediation strategies that is one of the strategies, that you can use. Now those strategies do work with television when you can say, "You're all going to sit down and watch a show together." But when so much of the new media --
Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: use occurs in the privacy of their bedroom -- Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: or with their little -- Peggy Orenstein: with their text yeah -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: cell phone device next to them in their bed, how do you then know what your kid is even consuming?
and new media because I think there's also so many things that its opened up and so many ways that kids can find affirming -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Messages. Peggy Orenstein: messages and alternatives to what used to be a kind of mono mainstream message ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: that's really valuable for them.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Messages. Peggy Orenstein: messages and alternatives to what used to be a kind of mono mainstream message ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: that's really valuable for them. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right, absolutely. I think, for instance, there is literature that suggests that kids are coming out, gay teens are coming out at younger and younger
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Peggy Orenstein: that's really valuable for them. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right, absolutely. I think, for instance, there is literature that suggests that kids are coming out, gay teens are coming out at younger and younger ages. And we do think, for instance, that access to chat rooms, access to sites where they can meet other people struggling with the same issues has helped them. And it's
interesting because a couple months ago, you saw the incident in New Jersey, Tyler Clementi Peggy Orenstein: Right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: the teen at Rutgers who was sort of quasi-bullied I guess through his roommate's videotaping him. Now it's interesting because here technology was really the tool by which this individual was harassed, if you will. But immediately after that there was that whole YouTube movement,
Peggy Orenstein: “It Gets Better”. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: “It Gets Better”, thank you. So again technology can also serve as a pathway if you will as -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: you said to open up these new – these alternative possibilities.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: “It Gets Better”, thank you. So again technology can also serve as a pathway if you will as -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: you said to open up these new – these alternative possibilities. And then when you think about, for instance, minorities within minorities -- Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum.
And then when you think about, for instance, minorities within minorities -- Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: you think about gay youth who are African-American or Latino -- these individuals I think have even more options with technology. So I think -- Peggy Orenstein: Um-hum. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: definitely in terms of access messages that these new tools are a positive.
Peggy Orenstein: Right, right. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. So okay let's, -- I just wanna talk a little bit about the history again because -- Peggy Orenstein: Uh-huh. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: one of the, and the second chapter where you're talking about pink, what was it pink drills, no I'm just kidding, pink stuffs, pink blocks, and whatnot
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. So okay let's, -- I just wanna talk a little bit about the history again because -- Peggy Orenstein: Uh-huh. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: one of the, and the second chapter where you're talking about pink, what was it pink drills, no I'm just kidding, pink stuffs, pink blocks, and whatnot that you get for girls. Now this cleavage, this pink is for girls blue is for boys was not always the case --
Peggy Orenstein: No, no. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And in fact I was telling you the 1950 Peter Pan movie in fact had little Michael in a pink jumper. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And I -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, you wouldn't see that now. And it's much actually more than that. If you go back a hundred years --
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And in fact I was telling you the 1950 Peter Pan movie in fact had little Michael in a pink jumper. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And I -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, you wouldn't see that now. And it's much actually more than that. If you go back a hundred years -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: all babies wore white, they wore white dresses -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right.
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: And I -- Peggy Orenstein: Yeah, you wouldn't see that now. And it's much actually more than that. If you go back a hundred years -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: all babies wore white, they wore white dresses -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: because we didn't have Maytag back then and -- we had to boil clothes to get them clean -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right.
Peggy Orenstein: so we didn't like to have color. S, so there were no colors. A, all babies wore dresses. T, they all wear white. And then nursery colors came in -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: and they were pink and blue and then when they were assigned a sex, pink was assigned to boys and blue was assigned to girls because pink was considered to be the more pastel version of red which connoted masculinity and the God Mars and strength.
Peggy Orenstein: at this point. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: At this point. Peggy Orenstein: And in addition you have “Cinderella” and “Sleeping Beauty” -- the Disney movies -- they're in blue and -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: It's true.
Peggy Orenstein: I didn't think about, I hadn't 'til you pointed it out remembered about is it Michael, Michael's in pink? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Michael I think, yes. Peggy Orenstein: And -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: the younger child.
Peggy Orenstein: the little one yeah, the one ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: in the little feety pajamas and somebody sent me pictures of Michael Reagan in the 1960's wearing an all pink suit. So I mean if Ronald Reagan's dressed in the same thing. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Thing. That would not happen today.
and listening, eavesdropping ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and I was taking my daughter and a friend of hers to go scootering in the park and her friend had a pink scooter and a pink Hello Kitty helmet and my daughter had a silver scooter and a fire breathing dragon helmet. And the other little girl said, "You'reYour helmet's not pink, it's not for girls."
had a silver scooter and a fire breathing dragon helmet. And the other little girl said, "You'reYour helmet's not pink, it's not for girls." Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: And my daughter said, "Well it's for boys or for girls." And the other girl kinda looked skeptical and I thought in that little interaction ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam,: there was so much going on about what the expectation is for girls, what the mandate is for girls about what might happen if you don't follow that
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: And my daughter said, "Well it's for boys or for girls." And the other girl kinda looked skeptical and I thought in that little interaction ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam,: there was so much going on about what the expectation is for girls, what the mandate is for girls about what might happen if you don't follow that and just as --. Even as girls are doing better in so many realms, the pressure to define themselves through appearance and play sexiness and just this little pink box that starts
when they're young that gets smaller and smaller and defines girlhood increasingly through pinkness and princesses, and then spa birthday parties asat four ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: and makeovers and the whole thing. And it's just, it's too narrow. I mean I just want my point is to just say it's too narrow -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum.
Peggy Orenstein: and it's getting narrower. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Absolutely. Now I know you have tried to have those mixed messages, multi messages that girls can do anything and I know as a parent of a girl I did the same thing. But then they come to preschool ?
this? Peggy Orenstein: It's humbling to be a parent isn't it? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: It really is. Peggy Orenstein: And I always like to say that in this book I really present myself as a fellow traveler. I'm not --
Peggy Orenstein: And I always like to say that in this book I really present myself as a fellow traveler. I'm not -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: I am inconsistent, I am hypocritical, I am contradictory 'cause that's what it means to be a parent, right? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: And I'm like not a tiger mom I'm like a -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: dog on four roller skates mom, I think is what I am. But so I think
Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: I am inconsistent, I am hypocritical, I am contradictory 'cause that's what it means to be a parent, right? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: And I'm like not a tiger mom I'm like a -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Peggy Orenstein: dog on four roller skates mom, I think is what I am. But so I think first there's two answers to that.
first there's two answers to that. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: The first is to understand why that happens in preschool. And what happens is that kids don't understand the whole penis vagina thing. And let's just for the sake of it can we just for the sake of this conversation say a penis makes you a boy and a vagina makes
So it's natural for kids to do that. I, it's natural for them to start segregating by sex. Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: Iit's natural for them, much as I hated to hear it, to go for stereotypical toys. And the difference in toy choice is one of the biggest gender differences across the entire life span and it's universal. I, it's true when they do tests on monkeys. Boys go for the balls, girls go for the dolls.
But that said there's also a lot of research on the neuroplasticity ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: of preschooler's brains and the ways that the inborn differences -- Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Um-hum. Peggy Orenstein: between girls and boys when left to flourish in their separate cultures become big gaps. Lise Eliot writes a lot about that ?
Peggy Orenstein: between girls and boys when left to flourish in their separate cultures become big gaps. Lise Eliot writes a lot about that ? Kaveri Subrahmanyam: Right. Peggy Orenstein: in “Pink Brain, Blue Brain”. And so any time kids play across sex, it is healthy and important and good for them cognitively, psychologically, emotionally, and for their future relationships.